livecd Digest, Vol 709, Issue 1

satit satit at mail.wbac.ac.th
Tue Feb 26 06:48:00 PST 2008


Hi , Gentleman

Please do not stop LFS Live CD Project.
This project make me and my student learn more a lot than LFS and BLFS.
IMO, It's not only normal live cd but also be the great project, there are a
lot useful stuff  inside in the project.

If there're  anything want me to support. please let me know.
Keep in runnig!!!

Best Kind Regards,

Satit P.  


On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 00:00:02 -0700, livecd-request wrote
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Can the LiveCD be installed to Hard Drive (J. Greenlees)
>    2. LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Jeremy Huntwork)
>    3. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Jeremy Huntwork)
>    4. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Jeremy Huntwork)
>    5. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Jeremy Huntwork)
>    6. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Alexander E. Patrakov)
>    7. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Jeremy Huntwork)
>    8. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Matthias Feichtinger)
>    9. Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD? (Alexander E. Patrakov)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 01:57:20 -0800
> From: "J. Greenlees" <lists at jaqui-greenlees.net>
> Subject: Re: Can the LiveCD be installed to Hard Drive
> To: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C29100.2090601 at jaqui-greenlees.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> fickle fun wrote:
> > I could use some help. Trying LFS for the 1st time. Ran into a snagg
> > with LiveCD. Tried to create 'mkdir -v ../binutils-build' as per LFS6,
> > got 'permission denied'. Had to restart from scratch, would prefer to
> > load the CD to a partition on the hard drive, and build LFS on another
> > partition on the same hard drive. Already created both partitions.
> > Need help on how to install live CD to HD.
> > TIA
> These two hints both can help resolve the issues about the lack of
> permanent environment changes on the cd.
> 
> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/hints/downloads/files/stages-stop-
> and-resume.txt 
> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/hints/downloads/files/install-lfs-
> from-livecd.txt
> 
> Jaqui
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:37:13 -0500
> From: Jeremy Huntwork <jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Subject: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Cc: LFS Developers Mailinglist <lfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>,
> 	lfs-support at linuxfromscratch.org,	BLFS Development List
> 	<blfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>,	lfs-chat at linuxfromscratch.org
> Message-ID: <47C2E0A9.4010004 at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> It has recently been suggested to me that the LFS LiveCD project be 
> killed. The main arguments for this are, essentially:
> 
> 1) It is currently unmaintained
> 2) It removes the essential prerequisite of being able to configure 
> a Linux system 3) It leads to less testing from other hosts 4) A 
> seeming lack of community interest in contributing. Especially,
>  essential testing (and reports on the results of tests!) on varied 
> hardware does not seem to be taking place
> 
> As you may guess, I have mixed feelings about this. But after 
> reflecting on it a bit, my hesitancy to agree comes mostly from 
> personal attachment to the CD and perhaps not what is best for LFS.
> 
> At this point I need community input. I realize that many of you may 
> use and appreciate the CD, just as I do. But realistically, this 
> project will die of its own if it does not get some help. And if 
> that happens, then LFS would be better off removing the dead weight.
> 
> I have some energy and some ideas to put back into the project, but 
> only if I get some help with development and testing. I need to know 
> two things:
> 
> * Does the community still want the LiveCD project? (Consider that a 
> couple of the arguments above imply that the LFS LiveCD by its 
> nature is degrading the quality of LFS)
> 
> * If so, is the community prepared to lend help in keeping it alive?
> 
> If the answer to both questions is not a solid yes, I'm afraid that 
> we'll have no choice but to kill the project.
> 
> --
> JH
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:09:36 -0500
> From: Jeremy Huntwork <jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: LFS Developers Mailinglist <lfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Cc: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C2E840.3060003 at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Bruce Dubbs wrote:
> > I think we should just leave the project as quiescent, not kill it.  A
> > live CD is useful, but it doesn't have to be completely current.  Just
> > leave it alone for now and we can look into updating it when a change
> > makes it necessary.  For someone to use it, with a more current version
> > of LFS, they will just need to download the sources separately.
> 
> Well, I assume the old ISOs will remain around until they are 
> replaced, or are no longer useful at all. But I wonder if keeping a 
> dead project around is misleading.
> 
> As I said, I have ideas and some energy to put forward - but I need 
> to know I have help. I can't keep it going on my own.
> 
> --
> JH
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:23:56 -0500
> From: Jeremy Huntwork <jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: LFS Developers Mailinglist <lfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Cc: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C2F9AC.905 at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Alexander E. Patrakov wrote:
> > It may be
> > easier to start from scratch instead of "updating" this quirky CD.
> 
> If we were to go back and start from scratch for the next CD, I 
> would start with an _absolutely_ minimal CD and get rid of nearly 
> all of the BLFS packages) so that we could focus on general design 
> considerations early on. New scripts that supports package 
> management in the build process as we had earlier discussed would be 
> easier to generate. I wonder if we could adapt jhalfs to do the work 
> for us?
> 
> We could focus on designing from the ground up a CD that will be 
> eaiser to maintain, test and report usage on.
> 
> --
> JH
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:47:15 -0500
> From: Jeremy Huntwork <jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: LFS Support List <lfs-support at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Cc: LFS Developers Mailinglist <lfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>,
> 	Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C2FF23.7030602 at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Alexander E. Patrakov wrote:
> > Howard_apfc6 wrote:
> >> - Seems like the ultimate build platform for newbs.
> > 
> > That's exactly what I am against. LiveCD users create 90% of support
requests. 
> > Noobs (not to be confused with newbs) should be filtered out, e.g., by
telling 
> > them to install and configure a real distro.
> 
> But, in all honesty, that isn't solely the LiveCD's fault. The CD 
> itself still does some filtering in that it drops you splat onto a 
> command prompt. If you don't know how to configure a Linux system 
> (or at least, open up a file to read it on the command line and 
> follow instructions therein) you won't get very far.
> 
> I think there is an unwarranted aversion to support requests in this 
> community. If LFS is truly about education, it should welcome 
> helping users through the experience, instead of pushing them away. 
> If anything, this is more argument to have the FAQ kept up to date 
> so that it is easy to say to the arriving Noobs (who will come, with 
> or without a CD...) 'Your question is answered in the FAQ - don't 
> post here until you check it.'
> 
> > Besides, the LFS LiveCD has no real technical benefits as a host, except
that it 
> > is preconfigured and already contains the packages - but why not download
them 
> > separately in a town with a broadband connection, put onto a flash drive, and 
> > use with your current Linux distro?
> > 
> > In short, LFS website misadvertises the LiveCD as a "well-tested platform" 
> > (nwebs confuse this with the "best platform"), while if one has a distro 
> > installed, it should work just as well!
> 
> I disagree. The LiveCD exists as standing proof that the LFS book is 
> sound and produces a working system. It is therefore 'well tested' 
> in the sense that it is a result of all the work that the LFS 
> developers have done. I grant that it is a convenience to start from 
> a system that you know has worked for others in building LFS,
>  instead of perhaps trudging through setting up another distro. But 
> it is, at the least, a very useful convenience for long-time users 
> of LFS, and at the most, the means to allow a user to experience LFS 
> where there are otherwise hardware or bandwidth limitations.
> 
> --
> JH
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:49:21 +0500
> From: "Alexander E. Patrakov" <patrakov at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C2FFA1.1020707 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Jeremy Huntwork wrote:
> > I wonder if we could adapt jhalfs to do the work for us?
> 
> Jhalfs works well only when there are only a few (ideally, zero) 
> deviations from the book. In the current CD, there are the following 
> deviations in the LFS part 
> (the list is probably incomplete):
> 
> * config.site is used to set global optimization flags, the 
> architecture, to remove the obsolete /usr/man directory, and to 
> suppress static libraries in order to save space.
> 
> * some more perl modules are built in Chapter 5, to support Markdown,
>  which is a perl script and must be run outside of the chroot (and 
> thus has its interpreter as /tools/bin/perl). For the same reason, 
> zlib, cdrtools, and zisofstools are built at the end of Chapter 5.
> 
> * gcc pass1 and binutils pass1 have to be compiled without cflags 
> set for everything else in config.site, because the host compiler 
> may be too old for understanding advanced CFLAGS.
> 
> * some other switches (no-ops for 32-bit x86) are added in order to 
> accomodate the 64-bit book.
> 
> * in some places, I have to add --disable-shared or --enable-static 
> to override the defaults from config.site.
> 
> * gpm is compiled before ncurses in order to support the use of 
> console mouse in ncurses-only applications such as Dialog (try 
> clicking through the net-setup dialog with your mouse on the Linux 
> text console--this is impossible if the ncurses package is compiled 
> without gpm).
> 
> * grub is compiled at the very end--this is an artifact of the 
> reiser4 patch that was present in the old LiveCD versions. And it 
> has to override unsuitable CFLAGS from config.site.
> 
> * glibc has a patch to add the ru_RU.CP1251 locale important for 
> Russians that want bug-for-bug compatibility with Windows, and 
> several additional locales
> 
> * kbd has many additional third-party keymaps
> 
> * lfs-bootscripts are patched
> 
> * some packages (udev, module-init-tools) come with non-default 
> configuration files
> 
> * ncurses doesn't build the C++ binding, because it is used by 
> nothing on the CD
> 
> IMHO, that's already too much for jhalfs to be useful. Some work 
> should be started on merging the useful bits back to LFS, and we 
> should decide how to handle the rest of the deviations.
> 
> -- 
> Alexander E. Patrakov
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:57:56 -0500
> From: Jeremy Huntwork <jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <47C301A4.1090605 at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Alexander E. Patrakov wrote:
> > IMHO, that's already too much for jhalfs to be useful. Some work should be 
> > started on merging the useful bits back to LFS, and we should decide how to 
> > handle the rest of the deviations.
> 
> If we're starting minimal, and we aim to stick strictly to the LFS 
> book 
> (as was an original aim; I realize I approved deviation for several 
> of those items for various circumstances) then there's no reason we 
> can't use jhalfs.
> 
> You know better than I the reason for most of those changes. And you 
> know which ones are suited to be merged back to LFS (with 
> developer/community approval). I suggest you try to get the ones you 
> feel are important merged to LFS and we'll drop the others if we 
> start on a CD from scratch. I would want to get back to that 
> original aim of adhering to the LFS book without deviation for the 
> main system.
> 
> --
> JH
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:07:50 +0100
> From: Matthias Feichtinger <asdf at vienna.at>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: Development of LFS LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Message-ID: <200802251907.50262.asdf at vienna.at>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
> 
> This is Everyone answering Jeremy Huntwork:-)
> 
> >It has recently been suggested to me that the LFS LiveCD project be
> >killed.
> 
> By whom?
> 
> >The main arguments for this are, essentially: 
> >
> >1) It is currently unmaintained
> 
> That doesn't matter at all.
> 
> >2) It removes the essential prerequisite of being able to configure a
> >Linux system
> 
> Really?
> 
> >3) It leads to less testing from other hosts
> 
> Sorry, I'm using it much more than any other Live CD!
> 
> >4) A seeming lack of community interest in contributing. Especially,
> >essential testing (and reports on the results of tests!) on varied
> >hardware does not seem to be taking place
> 
> As far as I can judge hardware is more and more unified as industry
> is concentrating. So less feedback doesn't mean Live CD is used less 
> :-)
> 
> >As you may guess, I have mixed feelings about this.
> 
> Trust yout feeling and don't give up :-)
> 
> >But after reflecting on it a bit, my hesitancy to agree comes mostly from 
> >personal attachmentto the CD and perhaps not what is best for LFS.
> 
> Having no Linux at all on a host, everyone can start building using
> the Live CD, isn't that great?
> 
> >At this point I need community input.
> 
> I do understand!
> 
> >I realize that many of you may use 
> >and appreciate the CD, just as I do.
> 
> Couldn't everything be fine now?
> 
> >But realistically, this project 
> >will die of its own if it does not get some help.
> 
> Sorry for being occupied by my job heavily  =8-[
> 
> >I have some energy and some ideas to put back into the project, but only
> >if I get some help with development and testing.
> 
> I'd like to help, really!
> 
> >I need to know two things:
> 
> >* Does the community still want the LiveCD project?
> 
> YES                          YES
> 	YES		YES
> 		YES
> 		YES
> 		YES
> 		YES
> 		
> >(Consider that a couple of the arguments above imply 
> >that the LFS LiveCD by its nature is 
> >degrading the quality of LFS)
> 
> OK, starting considering :-)
> 
> >* If so, is the community prepared to lend help in keeping it alive?
> 
> I can't speak for the community, just for my person and I say
> YES
> 
> >If the answer to both questions is not a solid yes, I'm afraid that
> >we'll have no choice but to kill the project.
> 
> No.
> No killing.
> There's enough killing.
> The Live CD never should be killed, Yes, it's some kind of compromise
> in some way, but why not have some compromise than sudden death?
> 
> -- 
> F? p.t.Leser: Die n?ste Zeile enth? alle Informationen. LG 
> Matthias:-)
> ..--. -.-- .-. --.. .-. .- ..-. ..- -. .... -.-. --. .--- ...- .-. .-
>  ...- .- .- .-. . .-. ..-. --. -. --.- --. .... .- --.- .-.. -.- .-
> -. .. --- .-. ...- .. ...- .-. .- .- -. --.- -... --. -. --.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:44 +0500
> From: "Alexander E. Patrakov" <patrakov at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: LiveCD or No LiveCD?
> To: BLFS Development List <blfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>
> Cc: LFS Developers Mailinglist <lfs-dev at linuxfromscratch.org>,	LFS
> 	Support List <lfs-support at linuxfromscratch.org>,	Development of LFS
> 	LiveCD <livecd at linuxfromscratch.org>,	lfs-chat at linuxfromscratch.org
> Message-ID: <47C38F28.1090300 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hugo Grauls wrote:
> > Without the LiveCD I would never have been able to get LFS6.2 up and 
> > running. Biggest worry is to have the right basic tools at hand to build 
> > from scratch, i.e. the adequate releases of GCC, linker, header files 
> > etc ...
> 
> Knowing what software to install is one of the prerequisites. And 
> the needed versions are satisfied even by such an old distribution 
> as Fedora Core 2.
> 
> I.e.: I am glad that it worked for you and that you learned from the 
> project, but we really expect higher initial skills.
> 
> -- 
> Alexander E. Patrakov
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> -- 
> http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/livecd
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> End of livecd Digest, Vol 709, Issue 1
> **************************************


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